<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: counsel to the church</title>
	<atom:link href="http://mattfrizzellonline.com/2010/01/18/counsel-to-the-church/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://mattfrizzellonline.com/2010/01/18/counsel-to-the-church/</link>
	<description>thoughts from the big chair</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2010 17:25:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://mattfrizzellonline.com/2010/01/18/counsel-to-the-church/#comment-471</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 00:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattfrizzellonline.com/?p=535#comment-471</guid>
		<description>I agree with BTC&#039;s points. The devil is always in the details.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with BTC&#8217;s points. The devil is always in the details.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bewarethechicken</title>
		<link>http://mattfrizzellonline.com/2010/01/18/counsel-to-the-church/#comment-470</link>
		<dc:creator>bewarethechicken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattfrizzellonline.com/?p=535#comment-470</guid>
		<description>Please see my blog for some more of my thoughts on the Counsel and its implications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please see my blog for some more of my thoughts on the Counsel and its implications.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://mattfrizzellonline.com/2010/01/18/counsel-to-the-church/#comment-461</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:39:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattfrizzellonline.com/?p=535#comment-461</guid>
		<description>BTC:

Joanna Brooks (Mormon Girl) put up a post over at Mormon Matters a few days ago where she linked to the daily Gallup tracking poll summary for all of 2009 (published on January 10, 2010. The link is &quot;http://www.gallup.com/poll/125021/mormons-conservative-major-religious-group.aspx&quot; if you&#039;d like to read the whole Gallup piece on the religious/political party/political philosophy of various religious classifications. 

It has some surprises about how the political spectrum breaks down by religions, but probably demonstrates much about why America is a center-right country.

I took the data in the first Gallup table and computed a &quot;net conservative %&quot; score by ignoring the self-identified moderates among the 7 religious classifications listed by Gallup. The results:

Mormons +41%
Protestants +30%
Catholics +20%
Islam -7%
Non-Abrahamic Faiths -19%
Non-Religious -21%
Jedaism -23%

American Chrisitianity is mainstream America, and American Christianity self-identifies as much more conservative than liberal.

Interestingly, American Jews are more liberal than any other faith groups, and Islam lies at the middle of the spectrum. Although Mormons are the most conservative major religion (i.e., large enough to show up even in the large Gallup aggregated data) they are more like the other Christians than the other Christians are like any non-Christian group.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTC:</p>
<p>Joanna Brooks (Mormon Girl) put up a post over at Mormon Matters a few days ago where she linked to the daily Gallup tracking poll summary for all of 2009 (published on January 10, 2010. The link is &#8220;http://www.gallup.com/poll/125021/mormons-conservative-major-religious-group.aspx&#8221; if you&#8217;d like to read the whole Gallup piece on the religious/political party/political philosophy of various religious classifications. </p>
<p>It has some surprises about how the political spectrum breaks down by religions, but probably demonstrates much about why America is a center-right country.</p>
<p>I took the data in the first Gallup table and computed a &#8220;net conservative %&#8221; score by ignoring the self-identified moderates among the 7 religious classifications listed by Gallup. The results:</p>
<p>Mormons +41%<br />
Protestants +30%<br />
Catholics +20%<br />
Islam -7%<br />
Non-Abrahamic Faiths -19%<br />
Non-Religious -21%<br />
Jedaism -23%</p>
<p>American Chrisitianity is mainstream America, and American Christianity self-identifies as much more conservative than liberal.</p>
<p>Interestingly, American Jews are more liberal than any other faith groups, and Islam lies at the middle of the spectrum. Although Mormons are the most conservative major religion (i.e., large enough to show up even in the large Gallup aggregated data) they are more like the other Christians than the other Christians are like any non-Christian group.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bewarethechicken</title>
		<link>http://mattfrizzellonline.com/2010/01/18/counsel-to-the-church/#comment-460</link>
		<dc:creator>bewarethechicken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattfrizzellonline.com/?p=535#comment-460</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think your statistics about Americans being majority-coservative are reflective of recent polling FireTag - but I do acknowledge that, as a whole the US is far more conservative than pretty much any non-muslim country.

I suppose it&#039;s a matter of defining the label of Western conservatives, but I think that Western religious conservatives, with their notions of the afterlife, salvation, Christology, scripture, are far more aligned with the Community of Christ now, than when we were touting communal living, Book of Mormon, multi-tierd glories, etc.

As our theology becomes more &quot;mainstream&quot; I believe that mainstream reflects more of the Western conservative theology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think your statistics about Americans being majority-coservative are reflective of recent polling FireTag &#8211; but I do acknowledge that, as a whole the US is far more conservative than pretty much any non-muslim country.</p>
<p>I suppose it&#8217;s a matter of defining the label of Western conservatives, but I think that Western religious conservatives, with their notions of the afterlife, salvation, Christology, scripture, are far more aligned with the Community of Christ now, than when we were touting communal living, Book of Mormon, multi-tierd glories, etc.</p>
<p>As our theology becomes more &#8220;mainstream&#8221; I believe that mainstream reflects more of the Western conservative theology.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://mattfrizzellonline.com/2010/01/18/counsel-to-the-church/#comment-458</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattfrizzellonline.com/?p=535#comment-458</guid>
		<description>BTC:

Your choice is certainly understandable to me. I would disagree only with the phrase &quot;becoming&quot; more aligned with Western conservatives. To me it seems less aligned with Western conservatives than at any point in its history, though perhaps more conservative when Western and third world conservatives are added together.

You&#039;ve said things from time to time that suggest your early church experiences were outside America. Is that so? If so, you may be experiencing deep surprised at how conservative a country America actually is compared to Canada or Western Europe, for example.

Good or bad, Americans are majority-conservative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTC:</p>
<p>Your choice is certainly understandable to me. I would disagree only with the phrase &#8220;becoming&#8221; more aligned with Western conservatives. To me it seems less aligned with Western conservatives than at any point in its history, though perhaps more conservative when Western and third world conservatives are added together.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve said things from time to time that suggest your early church experiences were outside America. Is that so? If so, you may be experiencing deep surprised at how conservative a country America actually is compared to Canada or Western Europe, for example.</p>
<p>Good or bad, Americans are majority-conservative.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://mattfrizzellonline.com/2010/01/18/counsel-to-the-church/#comment-457</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattfrizzellonline.com/?p=535#comment-457</guid>
		<description>But isn&#039;t &quot;not playing well with others&quot; exactly what WE do when we presume that unity in diversity is to center around the 1/10,000th of Christianity that is comprised by our denomination?

And does God think that Christianity is the only important part of His community, when Christianity might be less than 1/3 of the planetary population (with a generous definition of being involved in Christianity)?

If we think God&#039;s work centers in us, we ought to be able to give reasons. What does this denomination offer the planetary civilization that will become Zion? After all, we were formed from people who LEFT other denominations in the first place. Those denominations could (and probably DID) also argue that people should stay in the denominations despite their differences.

We need to constantly check ourselves to be sure we are focused on Christ, not denomination, in order to build the Kingdom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But isn&#8217;t &#8220;not playing well with others&#8221; exactly what WE do when we presume that unity in diversity is to center around the 1/10,000th of Christianity that is comprised by our denomination?</p>
<p>And does God think that Christianity is the only important part of His community, when Christianity might be less than 1/3 of the planetary population (with a generous definition of being involved in Christianity)?</p>
<p>If we think God&#8217;s work centers in us, we ought to be able to give reasons. What does this denomination offer the planetary civilization that will become Zion? After all, we were formed from people who LEFT other denominations in the first place. Those denominations could (and probably DID) also argue that people should stay in the denominations despite their differences.</p>
<p>We need to constantly check ourselves to be sure we are focused on Christ, not denomination, in order to build the Kingdom.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bewarethechicken</title>
		<link>http://mattfrizzellonline.com/2010/01/18/counsel-to-the-church/#comment-456</link>
		<dc:creator>bewarethechicken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattfrizzellonline.com/?p=535#comment-456</guid>
		<description>The only part you may have misunderstood is the notion that somehow I&#039;ve taken the &quot;high road&quot;. I certainly don&#039;t feel that way and I make no claim it is the &quot;right thing to do&quot; for everyone.

I appreciate that unity in diversity is not that we all think the same.  It is, as you say, valuing one another because of our difference, not in spite of them.  I feel the Community of Christ is not a place where that occurs, at least not at the policy level where it counts.  This is one of the basic tenants, for me, that drives me to seek out a faith community that does value diversity for diversity&#039;s sake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only part you may have misunderstood is the notion that somehow I&#8217;ve taken the &#8220;high road&#8221;. I certainly don&#8217;t feel that way and I make no claim it is the &#8220;right thing to do&#8221; for everyone.</p>
<p>I appreciate that unity in diversity is not that we all think the same.  It is, as you say, valuing one another because of our difference, not in spite of them.  I feel the Community of Christ is not a place where that occurs, at least not at the policy level where it counts.  This is one of the basic tenants, for me, that drives me to seek out a faith community that does value diversity for diversity&#8217;s sake.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Blair</title>
		<link>http://mattfrizzellonline.com/2010/01/18/counsel-to-the-church/#comment-455</link>
		<dc:creator>Blair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattfrizzellonline.com/?p=535#comment-455</guid>
		<description>Beware...,
While I understand the perspective that we can only put up with so much so long and that at some point we feel we just don&#039;t have any other alternative than to move away, I am not sure it&#039;s the right thing to do.  I am not sure it&#039;s the high road.  
From what I understand of the first century Jesus and Judaism at that time, his desire was not to start a new faith movement, for that matter neither was Luther during the Reformation.  Rather I think it was to reform the old, to allow them to see that what they had turned into was not what was intended.
It seems to me from what I understand you to say, and please correct me if I am not hearing you,  is that it&#039;s ok to walk away, to join up with something else, or perhaps even start something new.  
I think it is that response that now has Christianity being represented in some 30,000 plus denominations.  From one perspective they could say that this represents all the various parts of the body that Paul talks about.  From another perspective one could say that the body of the chruch is highly fractured.  I could go along with the former if the 30,000 plus all played well together, supported one another and all that stuff that is necessary for the body to be well.  But in my understanding that is not the case, rather the later, fractured scenario is the case. 
Each differing part of the body has taken its toys, gifts and whatever and said &quot;Now we are the body, and the rest of you are someway in error of what it means to be the church.&quot;  We/they don&#039;t call it &quot;One True Church&quot; anymore, but it sure does seem to play out that way in many instances, granted not all, but many.
Because I see the family unit as a micro scale Zion, I think it is also the perspective that I understnad you to promote that allows so many covenant commitments to be broken, i.e. marriage.  Rather than find unity in our diversity, which is more often than not tough work, we go somewhere else and try that out, if that doesn&#039;t work we go somewhere else.
I know in my own marriage there have been times when I have checked out emotionally and wondered what I am doing waking up next to this person day after day.  When I reflected on that, I discovered it was my covenant with God that kept me there and then called me to check back in to this thing we call marriage.  Many in the straight world don&#039;t get this when it comes to LGBT relationships and just how important the public marriage covenant can be.
Unity in diversity is not unity in that we all think the same or have something in common.  Unity in diversity is that we value one another because of our differences not in spite of them.  To me that is what it means to be the body of Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beware&#8230;,<br />
While I understand the perspective that we can only put up with so much so long and that at some point we feel we just don&#8217;t have any other alternative than to move away, I am not sure it&#8217;s the right thing to do.  I am not sure it&#8217;s the high road.<br />
From what I understand of the first century Jesus and Judaism at that time, his desire was not to start a new faith movement, for that matter neither was Luther during the Reformation.  Rather I think it was to reform the old, to allow them to see that what they had turned into was not what was intended.<br />
It seems to me from what I understand you to say, and please correct me if I am not hearing you,  is that it&#8217;s ok to walk away, to join up with something else, or perhaps even start something new.<br />
I think it is that response that now has Christianity being represented in some 30,000 plus denominations.  From one perspective they could say that this represents all the various parts of the body that Paul talks about.  From another perspective one could say that the body of the chruch is highly fractured.  I could go along with the former if the 30,000 plus all played well together, supported one another and all that stuff that is necessary for the body to be well.  But in my understanding that is not the case, rather the later, fractured scenario is the case.<br />
Each differing part of the body has taken its toys, gifts and whatever and said &#8220;Now we are the body, and the rest of you are someway in error of what it means to be the church.&#8221;  We/they don&#8217;t call it &#8220;One True Church&#8221; anymore, but it sure does seem to play out that way in many instances, granted not all, but many.<br />
Because I see the family unit as a micro scale Zion, I think it is also the perspective that I understnad you to promote that allows so many covenant commitments to be broken, i.e. marriage.  Rather than find unity in our diversity, which is more often than not tough work, we go somewhere else and try that out, if that doesn&#8217;t work we go somewhere else.<br />
I know in my own marriage there have been times when I have checked out emotionally and wondered what I am doing waking up next to this person day after day.  When I reflected on that, I discovered it was my covenant with God that kept me there and then called me to check back in to this thing we call marriage.  Many in the straight world don&#8217;t get this when it comes to LGBT relationships and just how important the public marriage covenant can be.<br />
Unity in diversity is not unity in that we all think the same or have something in common.  Unity in diversity is that we value one another because of our differences not in spite of them.  To me that is what it means to be the body of Christ.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bewarethechicken</title>
		<link>http://mattfrizzellonline.com/2010/01/18/counsel-to-the-church/#comment-454</link>
		<dc:creator>bewarethechicken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattfrizzellonline.com/?p=535#comment-454</guid>
		<description>I believe that one should pick a denomination the way one picks a spouse.

Spouses don&#039;t, and shouldn&#039;t always agree and always get along, however, they should have common goals, common basic understandings on important issues.  At the same time, we shouldn&#039;t believe our personal relationship, family, way of living, is the ideal.  That other families live in our community and, while different and in some cases at odds, are of equal worth and value.

Similarly, a denomination, while necessarily having conflict and struggles, should also support and encourage its membership, and have a common mission and basic beliefs.  If it does not, for whatever reason, then the individual should find a new denomination rather than trying to squeeze into a bad fit - just as I believe one needs to get out of an abusive relationship, or one that does not nurture both participants.

Personally, I have moved on (or am in the process of moving on) from the Community of Christ, as I see it as a denomination, becoming far more aligned with &quot;western conservatives&quot;.  While I am ok with differences, the notions that God is &quot;against&quot; certain things and &quot;for&quot; certain things and we need to react to that by rejecting/excluding some and elevating others, is so contrary to my understanding of the Gospel message, that the relationship has become irreconcilable.

What was difficult was achieving the recognition that Zion is not made up of one denomination, all believing alike, but of many people, in many denominations, following their own faith paths in peace.

It has helped me, because I am less invested in what the &quot;church&quot; does.  If the Community of Christ opens itself to LGBT and rejects the remnants of the &quot;one-true-church&quot; theology, then I will rejoice.  If it does not, then it will still be a haven for those who share that theological structure, wrong as I believe it is.  

Fortunately, there are others with whom we may align ourselves that can feed us as we need to be fed.  And that&#039;s ok.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that one should pick a denomination the way one picks a spouse.</p>
<p>Spouses don&#8217;t, and shouldn&#8217;t always agree and always get along, however, they should have common goals, common basic understandings on important issues.  At the same time, we shouldn&#8217;t believe our personal relationship, family, way of living, is the ideal.  That other families live in our community and, while different and in some cases at odds, are of equal worth and value.</p>
<p>Similarly, a denomination, while necessarily having conflict and struggles, should also support and encourage its membership, and have a common mission and basic beliefs.  If it does not, for whatever reason, then the individual should find a new denomination rather than trying to squeeze into a bad fit &#8211; just as I believe one needs to get out of an abusive relationship, or one that does not nurture both participants.</p>
<p>Personally, I have moved on (or am in the process of moving on) from the Community of Christ, as I see it as a denomination, becoming far more aligned with &#8220;western conservatives&#8221;.  While I am ok with differences, the notions that God is &#8220;against&#8221; certain things and &#8220;for&#8221; certain things and we need to react to that by rejecting/excluding some and elevating others, is so contrary to my understanding of the Gospel message, that the relationship has become irreconcilable.</p>
<p>What was difficult was achieving the recognition that Zion is not made up of one denomination, all believing alike, but of many people, in many denominations, following their own faith paths in peace.</p>
<p>It has helped me, because I am less invested in what the &#8220;church&#8221; does.  If the Community of Christ opens itself to LGBT and rejects the remnants of the &#8220;one-true-church&#8221; theology, then I will rejoice.  If it does not, then it will still be a haven for those who share that theological structure, wrong as I believe it is.  </p>
<p>Fortunately, there are others with whom we may align ourselves that can feed us as we need to be fed.  And that&#8217;s ok.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://mattfrizzellonline.com/2010/01/18/counsel-to-the-church/#comment-453</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattfrizzellonline.com/?p=535#comment-453</guid>
		<description>Matt:

I think that you are on to something with the notion of the changing church as the New Testament of the RLDS, but I would invite you to consider it in the context of the New Testament of the Restoration. There are many from outside our denomination who are also the &quot;beloved children of the Restoration&quot; to whom the closing portions of the Proposed Section 164 can truthfully be addressed by a loving God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt:</p>
<p>I think that you are on to something with the notion of the changing church as the New Testament of the RLDS, but I would invite you to consider it in the context of the New Testament of the Restoration. There are many from outside our denomination who are also the &#8220;beloved children of the Restoration&#8221; to whom the closing portions of the Proposed Section 164 can truthfully be addressed by a loving God.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
